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Post by androgyn on Mar 10, 2009 21:33:59 GMT -5
Then I feel that this same law that condems women should apply to men as well when "they sleep around". But there exists an extreme double standard where men are concerned in the Middle East and admitedly elsewhere in backwards countries. The difference is that a man can get away with this a lot easier in an Islamic country it seems; as you said it is even legal in some countries...You say that this is culture, but what is culture if not a reflection of our religion?
As far as Hitler, the whole world went againt Hitler once they realized what he was doing to Jews and others. All Germans today are ashamed of that part of their history, which happened like all other wars do, out of ignorance and fear of the "other", that only exists in our own minds. God realization rids us of this ignorance and should be persued directly without religion, which has distorted all messages and their messengers, including Mohammad.
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musa
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Post by musa on Mar 10, 2009 22:11:00 GMT -5
Then I feel that this same law that condems women should apply to men as well when "they sleep around". But there exists an extreme double standard where men are concerned in the Middle East and admitedly elsewhere in backwards countries. The difference is that a man can get away with this a lot easier in an Islamic country it seems; as you said it is even legal in some countries...You say that this is culture, but what is culture if not a reflection of our religion? As far as Hitler, the whole world went againt Hitler once they realized what he was doing to Jews and others. All Germans today are ashamed of that part of their history, which happened like all other wars do, out of ignorance and fear of the "other", that only exists in our own minds. God realization rids us of this ignorance and should be persued directly without religion, which has distorted all messages and their messengers, including Mohammad. First of all, if a man "sleeps around" with someone, he will be just as condemned. The punishment is the same for a man as for a woman. And no, culture is not a reflection of religion. In some cases, it is not even reminiscent. And when you speak of Hitler having widespread condemnation from the world, and therefore, it does not represent Christianity- then you are ignoring widespread condemnation within Islam. Here you have two Muslims on this site alone, both condemning it. Then almost all the major scholars also condemn it. And then you are going to act like it is a part of Islam? I'm sorry, but that is pure ignorance. If it is a part of Islam, you need to show me where that part is. You can read the entire Qur'an, you will not find one thing remotely related. It is a known fact that within Islam, any crime must be brought to the courts. In the case of adultery, there must be four witnesses. No one can take the law into their own hands, and no one can convict someone without witnesses. If you do indeed suspect your wife or husband of cheating, you can get a divorce. But without evidence, it is not punishable, neither by the courts, nor by 'honor' killings. I'm sorry but when I see people repeating these myths which are so common in the media, I get really nervous about the future in America. Muslims are already so hated and discriminated against, and I'd think people on a philosophy forum would care to look deeper into issues. Women are given great respect in Islam, more so than here in the West. In America, nearly 1 out of 4 women are raped. Is that women liberation? As I said, 'honor' killings are common in any tribal area of the world, whether it be Africa, South America, or the Middle East. Religion and race does not effect it. Humans have natural emotions, and sometimes take out their anger using those emotions. Once again, if you truly are asserting that 'honor' killing has anything to do with Islam, you need to provide a source for that. I can prove to you quite the contrary. For those who used to bury female children (and sometimes still do today):"And when the news of (the birth of) a female (child) is brought to any of them, his face becomes dark, and he is filled with inward grief! He hides himself from the people because of the evil of that whereof he has been informed. Shall he keep her with dishonor or bury her in the earth? Certainly, evil is their decision." (An-Nahl 16:58-59) As for how forcing women into marriage and abuse:"O You who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will, and you should not treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the Mahr (bridal-money given by the husband to his wife at time of marriage) you have given them, unless they commit open illegal sexual intercourse. And live with them honorably. If you dislike them, it may be that you dislike a thing and Allah brings through it a great deal of good." (An-Nisa 4:19) Women have the right to education:Authentic Hadith: "To seek knowledge is obligatory on every Muslim." Authentic Hadith: "Whoever follows a way to seek knowledge, Allah will make easy for him a way to paradise." Importance and respect of mothers:Authentic Hadith: "Paradise lies at the feet of mothers." "Who is most worthy of my love and respect?" The Prophet (PBUH)replied, "Your mother." The man asked, "And then who?" The Prophet (PBUH) again answered, "Your mother." The man asked one more time and received the same answer. When the man asked the question a fourth time, the Prophet (PBUH) answered, "Your father." "And we have enjoined upon man (to be good) to his parents: His mother bears him in weakness upon weakness..." (Qur'an 31:14). Men are no better or worse than women:"Oh Mankind! Obey your Lord, who created you from a single person and creates from like nature his mate, and from both derived countless men and women. Obey God, whom you turn to and obey the wombs that bore you, for God is ever-watching you." "Every soul will be (held) in pledge for its deeds" (Qur'an 74:38) Women rights over men:A man asked the Prophet what rights a woman has over a man. Muhammed responded: "When you eat, you make sure she has food. When you get dressed, you bring her her clothes. Do not strike her face. Do not swear at her. And do not ignore her." Final sermon of the Prophet (saws):"O People, it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women, but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under a trust from God and with His permission. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers. " A wife's relation to her husband:They (your wives) are garments for you, and you are garments for them." (Quran 2:187)
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Post by MagnetMan on Mar 10, 2009 22:31:01 GMT -5
Will there then be a resurrection of Truth on this Earth? Nope. Before the end of days, there will be a huge war. Imam Mahdi will come and lead the warriors for God. We believe, as of now, Jesus (as) is a Prophet, and he will return as the Messiah. There will be false messiahs against Jesus. There will be a great war, led by those who choose to follow God (with Al-Mahdi leading it) and those who choose to follow Shaytan (Satan) (led by Dajjal). Jesus (as) will come to kill Dajjal (the anti-Christ) After all this, mankind will cease to exist, and there will be a resurrection of the dead, and all mankind will be judged and then it will be determined where each human's soul is to go (i.e. heaven or hell). With all due respect though I believe the end of days {Armageddon) is a distinct possibility I do not think this is God's intention It would mean he doomed his own creation to certain failure. That would be diabolical
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Post by androgyn on Mar 10, 2009 22:58:06 GMT -5
First of all, if a man "sleeps around" with someone, he will be just as condemned. The punishment is the same for a man as for a woman. And no, culture is not a reflection of religion. In some cases, it is not even reminiscent. And when you speak of Hitler having widespread condemnation from the world, and therefore, it does not represent Christianity- then you are ignoring widespread condemnation within Islam. Here you have two Muslims on this site alone, both condemning it. Then almost all the major scholars also condemn it. And then you are going to act like it is a part of Islam? I'm sorry, but that is pure ignorance. If it is a part of Islam, you need to show me where that part is. You can read the entire Qur'an, you will not find one thing remotely related. It is a known fact that within Islam, any crime must be brought to the courts. In the case of adultery, there must be four witnesses. No one can take the law into their own hands, and no one can convict someone without witnesses. If you do indeed suspect your wife or husband of cheating, you can get a divorce. But without evidence, it is not punishable, neither by the courts, nor by 'honor' killings. I'm sorry but when I see people repeating these myths which are so common in the media, I get really nervous about the future in America. Muslims are already so hated and discriminated against, and I'd think people on a philosophy forum would care to look deeper into issues. Women are given great respect in Islam, more so than here in the West. In America, nearly 1 out of 4 women are raped. Is that women liberation? As I said, 'honor' killings are common in any tribal area of the world, whether it be Africa, South America, or the Middle East. Religion and race does not effect it. Humans have natural emotions, and sometimes take out their anger using those emotions. Once again, if you truly are asserting that 'honor' killing has anything to do with Islam, you need to provide a source for that. I can prove to you quite the contrary. For those who used to bury female children (and sometimes still do today):"And when the news of (the birth of) a female (child) is brought to any of them, his face becomes dark, and he is filled with inward grief! He hides himself from the people because of the evil of that whereof he has been informed. Shall he keep her with dishonor or bury her in the earth? Certainly, evil is their decision." (An-Nahl 16:58-59) As for how forcing women into marriage and abuse:"O You who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will, and you should not treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the Mahr (bridal-money given by the husband to his wife at time of marriage) you have given them, unless they commit open illegal sexual intercourse. And live with them honorably. If you dislike them, it may be that you dislike a thing and Allah brings through it a great deal of good." (An-Nisa 4:19) Women have the right to education:Authentic Hadith: "To seek knowledge is obligatory on every Muslim." Authentic Hadith: "Whoever follows a way to seek knowledge, Allah will make easy for him a way to paradise." Importance and respect of mothers:Authentic Hadith: "Paradise lies at the feet of mothers." "Who is most worthy of my love and respect?" The Prophet (PBUH)replied, "Your mother." The man asked, "And then who?" The Prophet (PBUH) again answered, "Your mother." The man asked one more time and received the same answer. When the man asked the question a fourth time, the Prophet (PBUH) answered, "Your father." "And we have enjoined upon man (to be good) to his parents: His mother bears him in weakness upon weakness..." (Qur'an 31:14). Men are no better or worse than women:"Oh Mankind! Obey your Lord, who created you from a single person and creates from like nature his mate, and from both derived countless men and women. Obey God, whom you turn to and obey the wombs that bore you, for God is ever-watching you." "Every soul will be (held) in pledge for its deeds" (Qur'an 74:38) Women rights over men:A man asked the Prophet what rights a woman has over a man. Muhammed responded: "When you eat, you make sure she has food. When you get dressed, you bring her her clothes. Do not strike her face. Do not swear at her. And do not ignore her." Final sermon of the Prophet (saws):"O People, it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women, but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under a trust from God and with His permission. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers. " A wife's relation to her husband:They (your wives) are garments for you, and you are garments for them." (Quran 2:187) Musa (Moses) You are not talking to someone who does not know the Middle East, as I am from there, and so do know that much of what you are saying is true regarding the respect paid to women on many levels. But it is also true that there is a huge double standard, and I for one have never heard of an honor killing where a woman killed a man... I agree with you that this country has regressed from its original Christian morality and is also not behaving according to its profesed principles, I am really not wanting to single out Islam, I'm sorry for sounding that way. I am just to the point where to me so much wrong has been done in the name of religiosity that I feel God is sick to death of us and really quite angry at all of the nonsense that we commit in his name. It's really time to get beyond religion and to go deeper to the realizations that all of our teachers and prophets understood and have a true personal experience with God. Once we do that, we will have true understanding of eachother and will no longer fear what is really just facets of the same diamond, and the same God.
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musa
Initiate
Posts: 25
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Post by musa on Mar 10, 2009 23:10:26 GMT -5
With all due respect though I believe the end of days {Armageddon) is a distinct possibility I do not think this is God's intention It would mean he doomed his own creation to certain failure. That would be diabolical Might I ask why you think that? I think that this life is simply a test to see what we deserve in the next. It's like going through school so that you can get a job. Try to get straight A's in this life, and do everything right, and you'll get what you deserve in the next. Besides, humanity will one day end, right? Scientifically speaking, the earth will cease to exist eventually. It is simply a planet like any other. So it's not that we will not exist. But our physical bodies as they are now, on this earth, will cease. We will continue on in another world.
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musa
Initiate
Posts: 25
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Post by musa on Mar 11, 2009 11:58:46 GMT -5
Musa (Moses) You are not talking to someone who does not know the Middle East, as I am from there, and so do know that much of what you are saying is true regarding the respect paid to women on many levels. But it is also true that there is a huge double standard, and I for one have never heard of an honor killing where a woman killed a man... I agree with you that this country has regressed from its original Christian morality and is also not behaving according to its profesed principles, I am really not wanting to single out Islam, I'm sorry for sounding that way. I am just to the point where to me so much wrong has been done in the name of religiosity that I feel God is sick to death of us and really quite angry at all of the nonsense that we commit in his name. It's really time to get beyond religion and to go deeper to the realizations that all of our teachers and prophets understood and have a true personal experience with God. Once we do that, we will have true understanding of eachother and will no longer fear what is really just facets of the same diamond, and the same God. Mhm I can get you. However, the thing is, humans act with human reactions. Honor killings are a human reaction, not an Islamic one. There's cases of men finding their wives cheating on them here in America, and they get a gun and murder em. Same thing in traditional countries, where adultery is looked down upon even more than in the West. When someone finds out their wife is cheating on them, he get's angry and reacts with his emotions. And just as it is rare for a man to shoot his wife here in America for cheating on him, it's also rare there too. But that does not mean it does not happen. If it were true that honor killings had anything to do with the people being Muslim, it would not happen in other countries as well. And I'd say honor killings are usually done out of impulse, and not always premeditated (though they may be sometimes). That would explain why there have been very few honor killings of men, because a man is physically stronger than a woman and therefore can overpower her. Honor killings were permitted in Brazil and Columbia up until the 90's, and each year, nearly 800 women are killed in Brazil by 'honor' killings, which is more than any Islamic country I could find. You act as if religion is the problem. Did you ever consider, that maybe Islam is the solution?
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Post by bhrhrahraa on Mar 11, 2009 15:57:38 GMT -5
People. You have to understand and be open minded that just because a group conforms and follows a practice, and coincidentically because they follow a certain religion, in no way does it stand in correlation to that certain religion. Just because it is a practice and just because it just so HAPPENS that these people are Muslims does NOT verify any action. Honor killings are murder, and murder is HARAM. The Qur'an nor the Hadiths accept honor killings. If Christians or Jews in America, in that case, started killing their wives, would you say that ALL Christians and Jews accept honor killings? NO!
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Post by MagnetMan on Mar 11, 2009 16:15:16 GMT -5
With all due respect though I believe the end of days {Armageddon) is a distinct possibility I do not think this is God's intention It would mean he doomed his own creation to certain failure. That would be diabolical Very good analogy, Musa. I look at like that so does all religions Very astute of you most people think (if they think of it alt all) that man will go on living forever and get engaged in future Star Wars etc etc. I believe that our evolution is an ongoing cyclic event which began with the naivete of a Stone Age consciousness and will one day come to an end in a future Age of Cosmic Transcendence It is possible that we might commit mass suicide before then One wrong finger on one wrong button is all that is needed But if we survive this daring teenage rebellion of self-determination and religious protestation and gambling with stocks and bonds on the temple floor of the family estate I think we will go on into a New Age of responsible global stewardship And then when we have our God-given home planet working properly again true adult love for each other and for God will celebrate the whole meaning of creation We will then grow old have no more children and merge once again with the loving Godhead from which we sprung I believe that the Great War on ignorance has begun you and I are engaged in it this internet is the battle ground these conversations you and I are having is setting the rules of the Nuclear Age The outline I have just given you is the New prophecy and it is filled with HOPE and profound respect for God. and His chosen Son Man himself
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Post by bhrhrahraa on Mar 11, 2009 16:32:55 GMT -5
^ I like how you write... like a poem.
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Post by MagnetMan on Mar 11, 2009 18:10:54 GMT -5
^ I like how you write... like a poem. ahh... my dear, bhrhrahraa is that a magic mantra, like abraghadabra?the question is do you like what is being said?
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Post by bhrhrahraa on Mar 11, 2009 18:20:44 GMT -5
Salaam, No. It's the beginning of a sura: Bismillah Hir Rahman Hir Rahim Alhamdulillah Hir Rabbil Al Ameen.
No, I do not like what is being said, but I've been putting my 2 cents in as well. Sometimes, it's frustrating to repeatedly put a point across if someone does not change their shift of perception and view it from a different angle.
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Post by bhrhrahraa on Mar 11, 2009 18:23:57 GMT -5
Oh and yes, I like what you said in your poem-like post in response to what was being asked.
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Post by MagnetMan on Mar 11, 2009 18:28:38 GMT -5
Salaam, No. It's the beginning of a sura: Bismillah Hir Rahman Hir Rahim Alhamdulillah Hir Rabbil Al Ameen. Then it is magical I knew it Which 2 cents are you referring to? and what perception is static?
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Post by bhrhrahraa on Mar 11, 2009 18:31:37 GMT -5
I was talking about the umm.. whatchama call it. The honor killings. And the static views was just in general.. about ignorance and ladida.
But overall, I told you the magic-ness of my name.... pretty cool eh? It's in the other post somewhere.
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Post by MagnetMan on Mar 11, 2009 18:47:04 GMT -5
I was talking about the umm.. whatchama call it. The honor killings. And the static views was just in general.. about ignorance and ladida. Yeah It is hard to root out set perceptions but you must keep trying compassion always works in the long run unfortunately I usually lose my temper and screw it up Yeah, very cool but I am going to shorten it. and call you Ra
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