FATHERING

[Magnet Man]

With a few significant exceptions (e.g. ants/bees) Nature has endowed all females with both the capability as well as the opportunity to mother and care for children.

This natural rite is not afforded to males in general.

Nature has ensured that fathering does not come without a test of character. In the wild the fight for that rite among bachelors can be to the death.

Among humans, ever since the Bronze Age of extended-family relationships in an agricultural milieu, dissolved into the more complex life-style of national industrialization, the earthy nature of that sacred family rite of fatherhood has gradually become artificially distorted.

As a consequence of our involvement in personal advancement in a highly competitive modern milieu, the profound rites and long-term responsibilities of fatherhood are not fully realized.

What has been forgotten from prehistoric tribal lore, and is now not properly understood from a psychological perspective, is that men in general are not ready for the demands of fatherhood until male menopause, (around 42 years of age)

The psyche of the male, and his extreme need to prove his self-worth among other males, is different from that of the female. Where the female is ready for motherhood soon after puberty should she so choose, the struggle for self awareness among pubertal males among his peer group only begins then.

At 21 he is ready for the application of his apprenticeship.

True mastership is rarely attained before 42.

Only then does he feel the natural urge to pass on his skills to a son.

Only then does he have the means to establish a sound estate on which to build the family home.

[Magnet Man]

Primates ape each other. Human primates are no different. Children grow up mimicking the postures, demeanors, actions and behavior of their elders, up and until puberty, before the teen reaction of self-determination clicks in and they seek to establish an exclusively independent personal identity.

Nature has designed parents to fill in the necessary role models. Parents did so throughout the Stone and Bronze Ages. And since those foundation two Ages comprise 99.9% of the evolution of a distinctly human consciousness, we are all genetically imprinted with almost 100,000 generations of basically sound socializing instincts

Once we graduated beyond a purely farm-based economy and initiated national industrialization, problems in dual role-modeling gradually emerged. In the early centuries of the Iron Age, fathers mainly practiced their budding craftsmanship at home and apprenticed their sons into their trades. But as national populations expanded, craftsmen were attracted to public works and fathers left home for most of each day the first time and children were left without the constant presence of a familiar male role-model.

The problem got worse during the imperial era when over-crowded nations expanded into New World colonies where mass production gradually became the new survival paradigm. Mothers were pulled into the mass production line and the children were brought up in public nurseries and crowded classrooms for much of each day.

The problem of natural parenting is even more complicated today as millions of potential mothers feel obligated to compete with men as career professionals.

The net result is increasing symptomatic social dysfunction. This is basically evidenced by the results we are getting from the State-enforced mass education system, and secondly via the never-ending expense in State policing. In most cities and towns, law enforcement eats up more than half of their budgets, and most politicians get elected by promising to control lawlessness.

So where do we go from here?

Education is obviously the key. But not the system we now have in place.

Where once very few children ever failed their lessons in the classroom and all were eager for an education. Today barely 1% excel, the rest are mediocre. 40% drop out before graduation and nobody knows how many cheat at examinations.

The movement is now towards homeschooling, which brings the mom back into the role modeling position, but still leaves the father out.

In oder to get the father back into the home during the crucial pre-pubertal growth period, our entire social attitude requires a mass paradigm shift.

A New Age Consciousness has to be initiated, one that recognizes that a healthy child in a healthy home, produces a healthy and highly productive nation of self-policed individuals.

[soulatom]

Wow MM you are really putting your finger on a hot pulse here. have just read these two posts and my mind was attacked by random thoughts while doing so. Ones that will require deeper thought to address these ideas properly.

On the quick take I was hit by the thing of not fathering until 42. You have stated in another post somewhere that collectively we are in a teenage phase, and I was imagining males in this mode. How do you prevent fathering before the male is ready. And again as you say there has to a complete shift in our consciousness and how we are looking at things.

Oh and the women who feel that they are finally getting a foothold on equality of the sexes only to be returned to the dark ages of mothering ( but that is a whole other issue ;-0 )

A thought that came to mind is that there is also a trend not only for homeschooling but also in many of the public arenas there is a trend to separate the sexes. From reports I have seen the segragated sexes at those ages in their life perform and are more content and can focus much better.

On the other hand as you are saying the need for the male role model can not be overstated. The black community in America will tell you that.

Seeing the role of parents in the parameters of right brain left brain function you would have to say that without the male influence to balance the female influence we are rasing children who are under developed in vital aspects of their consciousness.

This subject requires more reflection, would like to hear your thoughts on how to actually implement the father back into the home.....

[Jupiter]

admin said:

With a few significant exceptions (e.g. ants/bees)

What has been forgotten from prehistoric tribal lore, and is now not properly understood from a psychological perspective, is that men in general are not ready for the demands of fatherhood until male menopause, (around 42 years of age)

The psyche of the male, and his extreme need to prove his self-worth among other males, is different from that of the female. Where the female is ready for motherhood soon after puberty should she so choose, the struggle for self awareness among pubertal males among his peer group only begins then.

At 21 he is ready for the application of his apprenticeship.

True mastership is rarely attained before 42.

Only then does he feel the natural urge to pass on his skills to a son.

Only then does he have the means to establish a sound estate on which to build the family home.

You've got to be kidding right? I know plenty of males in this world that are good fathers and assumed that right long before they reached the age of 42. While yes they may be wiser at 42 don't you think there is a hell of a trade off here? I mean at 40 my own father was slowing down and had less interest in having more children than he obioulsy had a 21-25 which is when me and my brothers and sisters were born. Scientific study has shown that the sperm of the male begins to degenerate as the male ages whereas it was thought at one time that the female was the only one who's reproductive system aged. The dna threads in an older man start to break down, making it more likely for child defect and nonreproductive sperm count. Your statement sounds very idealistic but not very practical. Men and women start an attraction for each other very young in age and if that wasn't the natural time to become attracted why would nature build them that way? It seems to me that most in nature reproduce as soon as it becomes physically possible.

[Magnet Man]

jupiter said:

You've got to be kidding right?

Not on a subject as critical as this.

I know plenty of males in this world that are good fathers and assumed that right long before they reached the age of 42.

Certainly there are tens of thousands - but they are exceptions. There are tens of millions who are not.

While yes they may be wiser at 42 don't you think there is a hell of a trade off here? I mean at 40 my own father was slowing down and had less interest in having more children than he obviously had a 21-25 which is when me and my brothers and sisters were born.

I had no interest in my first son when I was 21. I was too busy trying to improve myself. I ended up in divorce and now have a 44 year old son who has spent his life resenting my abandonment. Sadly this is so with the majority of young marriages.
However, I got real interested in fathering at 42 and now have eight more. As grandfather I love playing with babies.

Scientific study has shown that the sperm of the male begins to degenerate as the male ages whereas it was thought at one time that the female was the only one who's reproductive system aged. The DNA threads in an older man start to break down, making it more likely for child defect and non reproductive sperm count.

I would question your source. Nature favors older bulls and allows them to chase of the young upstarts. She would not do that if their sperm was defective. Only the healthiest sperm makes it to the egg. My grandfather got married at 55 and had 13 healthy kids.

Your statement sounds very idealistic but not very practical. Men and women start an attraction for each other very young in age and if that wasn't the natural time to become attracted why would nature build them that way? It seems to me that most in nature reproduce as soon as it becomes physically possible.

Beauty is in th eye of the beholder. Young guys look more like girls. Man is a big ape. He bulks out and reaches full physical strength and beauty in his prime -(around 42) Nature favors bulls when they are in their prime. Sure, youngsters get infatuated at a young age - and fall out of it just as fast. That is no reason for the responsibilities of marriage and fathering. Adult male love is like fine wine - it needs time to mature.

[Jupiter]

admin said:

jupiter said:

You've got to be kidding right?

Not on a subject as critical as this.

Sorry didn't mean to sound so frivolous. Just find your idea here way away from anything I see as realistic. It is true that there are many embittered children now as the product of divorce. We are never hearing the end of it. But do you think it is simply because men fathering children that are too immature to realize the extent of what they are getting into?
The whole social attitude toward parenting is spiraling out of control. Women want to be in the executive workplace, the rate of single fathers and stay at home fathers are on the rise. Women are opting out of mother hodd themselves until they are in their 40's. Population pressure alone is causing people to cut back on children period.

[Jupiter]

admin said:

jupiter said:

I would question your source. Nature favors older bulls and allows them to chase of the young upstarts. She would not do that if their sperm was defective. Only the healthiest sperm makes it to the egg. My grandfather got married at 55 and had 13 healthy kids.

I will get back to you on this when I can find the data again.

[Jupiter]

Ageing fathers 'increase deformity risk'

Scientists have suggested that a deterioration in sperm quality as men get older leads to a heightened risk of deformities, dwarfism and other genetic diseases being passed on to children.










Researchers from the University of California found that sperm DNA fragmentation increased proportionately with the ageing of fathers. No link between age and the quality of sperm had previously been established.

Other failing factors identified by the study include declining sperm counts and a gradual loss of sperm mobility, leading the paper's authors to suggest that men as well as women face a "biological body clock".

"Our research suggests that men, too, have a biological time clock - only it is different," said co-lead author Brenda Eskenazi of the University of California.

"Men seem to have a gradual rather than an abrupt change in fertility and in the potential ability to produce viable healthy offspring."

As Andrew Wyrobek of the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory pointed out, delaying having children could result in the resulting offspring paying the price.

"This study shows that men who wait until they're older to have children are not only risking difficulties conceiving, they could also be increasing the risk of having children with genetic problems," he said.

With demographic changes caused by social and economic factors like rising house prices causing a trend towards delaying parenthood, today's news will not be welcomed by many middle-aged parents.

Human Reproduction Update Advance Access originally published online on June 10, 2004
Human Reproduction Update 2004 10(4):327-339; doi:10.1093/humupd/dmh030
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I read some others on this a fellow named Singh just can't locate them right now.
New research is startig to filter into the media. This is a concern of mine because of fertility issues of some close loved ones.
Hope it helps. Jup

[soulatom]

[/quote]

It is true that there are many embittered children now as the product of divorce. [/quote]

I would think that the amount of dysfunction and distortion that one child of divorce can render would be enough reason for us all to stand back and consider a different approach. Although many children of divorce manage well and live productive lives I don't believe you can find one that will tell you that it didn't affect them adversely and very few would tell you that thier lives wouldn't have been better if their parents hadn't divorced. On that note I think we really have to take a new look at parenting, Fathering included.

[piper]

I would like to see someone from the black community weigh in on this issue. Having spent time in South Los Angeles where there is an astounding lack of males in the home, and very few father figures the impact of this issue is deeply felt. I think that just about any single mother will tell you what a struggle it is to raise a son without a father. If there is only a female present in the home a girl has no idea how to pattern her affections for a male and a son has no idea how to pattern himself into manhood. Both parents are absolutely vital to the well being and health of a child. I know this from personal experience.

[murex]

I think it's best for people to become parents at age 25 or older. 28 or older is ideal.

I'm not one for having the government take away liberties, but on this issue, I think young parents should have to pay a price for becoming parents at too early of an age. It's not right for them to bring a life into the world without being able to take care of it.

It's really a problem that goes beyond the liberties of two people, as there is another person in the mix- one without a voice.

(I know, I sound like a pro-lifer)

[MagnetMan]

jupiter said:

Ageing fathers 'increase deformity risk'

Scientists have suggested that a deterioration in sperm quality as men get older leads to a heightened risk of deformities, dwarfism and other genetic diseases being passed on to children.

Thanks for the info. I would question the study to some extent. Aging is subjective. Some guys are past their prime at forty. Others are just getting into it. I believe virility it is a question of exercises, good diet habits and positive mental attitude.

Example:
On my mother's side, 13 kids - all healthy. Grandma married grandpa when he was fifty five. She was 16. They had the last kid when he was 75. He ate well and was strong as an ox Dies at 103.

13 kids on my father's side as well. All healthy.

Moderns don't age so well.

So, from this perspective ,in IMO study may be flawed.

[Jupiter]

magnetman said:

jupiter said:

Ageing fathers 'increase deformity risk'

Scientists have suggested that a deterioration in sperm quality as men get older leads to a heightened risk of deformities, dwarfism and other genetic diseases being passed on to children.

Thanks for the info. I would question the study to some extent. Aging is subjective. Some guys are past their prime at forty. Others are just getting into it. I believe virility it is a question of exercises, good diet habits and positive mental attitude.

Example:
On my mother's side, 13 kids - all healthy. Grandma married grandpa when he was fifty five. She was 16. They had the last kid when he was 75. He ate well and was strong as an ox Dies at 103.

13 kids on my father's side as well. All healthy.

Moderns don't age so well.

So, from this perspective ,in IMO study may be flawed.

Ahhh who can argue with thoses stats??? But I would guess that in America men are evolving to an unhelathy state. The guys that look helathy are pumped full of steroids and are sterile or headed on the fast train to heart disease and brain pops
I would guess that in alot of ways third world culture men maintain better health. More exercise, less health care and less food.
So if America and other first world countries are heading to an evolved state of less health than how does this play out??
It would seem that healthy people in general are becoming the exception as are healthy young fathers and by the time they reach 40 nowadays they are plagued by obesity, heart disease etc.....oh and all these facftors enter into a weakened sperm count and integreity of the sperm as well....ahh we are all doomed.

Interesting argument you pose here

[Kwan Yu]

Man ready for fathering
when craft is mastered
and son needed
to pass on trade secrets