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Post by Magnet Man on Feb 5, 2008 18:59:50 GMT -5
It is a basic Law that every Cause creates an Effect. Effect in turn creates the conditions for further Cause. If we follow this chain of Cause and Effect from the moment a singularity Caused the Big Bang on-wards, we see that the logical repercussions and conditions of the Effects that follow each Cause, reveal that the Universal Law of Cause and Effect is designed to gradually bring increasing order and balance to the chaotic conditions of the initial explosion. Thus eventually, from prior Cause came the Effective creation of molecular life - and from that creative Cause came an Effective reflective consciousness, which has accelerated the chain reaction of Cause and Effect Since Consciousness could not have evolved out of a vacuum, its eventual emergeance from prior Cause had to be Effected by Design. And because the beneficial designs of the Effects that follow Cause continues to become increasingly ordered and balanced, the logical end result of 1st Cause is the final Effect of a state of Perfect Order and Perfect Balalance Perfection, of course, is the essential attribute that defines Divine Consciousness Thus the Universe was Created by Divine Design. QED  |
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Lasher
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Destruction of the empty spaces is my one and only crime \m/ >_< \m/
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Post by Lasher on Feb 5, 2008 19:19:48 GMT -5
...I'm going to have to read this again when my headache is gone. Seriously.
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murex
Global Steward
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Post by murex on Feb 5, 2008 19:29:01 GMT -5
How do you know there had to be an element of 'design'? Perhaps the beginning is a result of a dead universe that resulted in a massive black hole that exploded.
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Post by Magnet Man on Feb 5, 2008 19:51:41 GMT -5
How do you know there had to be an element of 'design'? Perhaps the beginning is a result of a dead universe that resulted in a massive black hole that exploded. You will have to hang onto that question for a while, rex. I am trying to get over my own headache from reasoning out the pros and cons of the initial thesis.  |
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nickelfire
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slighted and scorned
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Post by nickelfire on Feb 7, 2008 14:41:43 GMT -5
My post is going to be very Devil’s Advocate; I personally think your theory makes a lot of sense MM, but anyways:
Consciousness isn’t believed to have formed out of a vacuum, its existence is, obviously, still scientifically unclear, but is believed to be a combination of certain elements and certain accelerated circuits connecting in the brain. It is also viewed as an evolutionary imperative because of the vastness of our brain which had grown to become its own intelligence, independent and self-reflective, a miracle, but a scientifically explainable miracle.
I personally doubt this theories credibility, but I can see its merits. However, if it is an ungrounded and naïve theory, than I pose a question its defense.
Technology has grown, and we can agree it is where it is without the direct influence of god. AI is now within reach, and (this may sound very science-fictional but humor me) a self-aware synthetic consciousness may arise. This would be viewed as a product of human engineering and divine plan will be refuted regarding its creation. Scientists and atheists would have further proof against intelligent design theory.
This may also be a naïve concept but for the sake of discussion I pose it to you. What do you think?
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Post by Magnet Man on Feb 7, 2008 16:39:46 GMT -5
This may also be a naïve concept but for the sake of discussion I pose it to you. What do you think? I posted this theorum on another forum. There have been several comments and challenges. I will transfer all of it here soon. Your answer is within. [EDIT] Below is the exchange I was referring to that I had on another forum. I tried to lay it out so the sequence is clear. There was more to it and you can read the rst on the original board here |
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Post by Magnet Man on Feb 8, 2008 17:24:36 GMT -5
Cause and Effect Magnetman: Since Consciousness could not have evolved out of a vacuum, its eventual emergeance in human form, from prior Cause had to be Effected by a designated purpose - by design. They: That's an untrue assumption. The cause had to be there for the effect, but there's nothing to say the cause wasn't random. You've kind of got an anthropic principle thing going. MM: And because the beneficial designs of the Effects that follow Cause continues to become increasingly ordered and balanced, the logical end result of Cause and effect is perfect order. They: Entropy always increases. Assuming the Big Bang model you used, the singularity was perfect order...seems we're going away from that. |
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Post by Magnet Man on Feb 8, 2008 17:56:06 GMT -5
MM: The random effect is always subordinate to to the evolutionary momentum and the purposeful effects resulting from causation. Randomness (purposeless energy) creates weird anomalies and mutations that always die out. The main principle of ordered progression remains. (I think in this context regarding the esoteric behavior of nuclear energy, Einstein was intuitively right and Bohr was analytically wrong.) MM: The Evolution of Consciousness is a cycle that begins and ends in the same place. We are at a point of maximum separation. The ego self reflects the Cosmic self. Our ignorance is fully exposed. The return to Grace is inevitable
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Post by Magnet Man on Feb 8, 2008 18:00:35 GMT -5
They: By evolutionary, do you mean evolution of life? The evolution of life is based on random mutations...the useful ones just happen to stick around. It's very easy to confuse purpose with usefulness. It's very impossible to know if there is a purpose and a hand guiding our evolution, but what we do know is that it appears to work one way, with or without some higher power telling it to do so. They: I'm not being flippant; what's your point? They:Be a little less dogmatic and explain that.
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Post by Magnet Man on Feb 8, 2008 18:10:53 GMT -5
MM: How can you separate our atomic structure from all others? Organic Life evolving into a self-refelctive consciousness is the logical end product of the original atomic explosion. Everything from then onwards was part of the evolutionary process. MM: Explain "just happen to stick around". MM: Please provide an example. MM: Objectively yes. But there are literally millions of subjective affirmations. You can call them all liars are self-deluders if you like. Thats your prerogative. MM: It is not a "higher power" giving instructions - just an unclouded state of consciousness experiencing beingness. MM: God does not play dice with the universe. MM: If you accept that consciousness, energy and matter are all one and the same thing (the Divine Triune of you like) then a self-reflective consciousness is the end product of Creation. Our human ego is a phantom creation designed by Consciousness to analyse itsellf. Obviously for no material reason other than amusement. This is a subjective assessement. Each seeker comes to their own conclusions. It cannot be rationalized. No two human beings see God in the same way. Tailhard De Chardin explained it beautifully for himself.
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Post by Magnet Man on Feb 8, 2008 18:24:39 GMT -5
They: Because it's a separate phenomenon...the 'evolution' of planets suitable of life was necessary to the evolution of life, but the evolution of planets does not necessitate the evolution of life. They: A useful adaptation, like maybe a hummingbird mutating and getting a longer beak, will stick around because the animal has a better chance to survive and pass on that mutated gene. If it got a shorter beak, the hummingbird has a greater chance of dying before passing on its less useful genes. They: Certainly. It seems, from a very human-biased perspective like Christianity, that the purpose of a horse or any other 'beast of burden' is to work for us. Really, they are big and strong because it was useful to their survival. It may seem like our brain has a God-intended purpose, but it was useful to our survival. Again, this isn't to say something else isn't guiding our evolution, but what we know is that it looks as if we are evolving due to natural processes. They: Oh? They: Which is it? They: Then what's perfect about it? It just seems like it is, and perfection has no place. They: Assuming God exists...we still don't know ;D They: I like this kind of thought, but again, why bring in the 'perfection' and 'divine'?
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Post by Magnet Man on Feb 8, 2008 18:39:35 GMT -5
MM:Which of the following elements found in the human body makes us a separate phenomenon from the elements the planet is made from? Oxygen (65%) Carbon (18%) Hydrogen (10%) Nitrogen (3%) Calcium (1.5%) Phosphorus (1.0%) Potassium (0.35%) Sulfur (0.25%) Sodium (0.15%) Magnesium (0.05%) Copper, Zinc, Selenium, Molybdenum, Fluorine, Chlorine, Iodine, Manganese, Cobalt, Iron (0.70%) Lithium, Strontium, Aluminum, Silicon, Lead, Vanadium, Arsenic, Bromine (trace amounts) And if these elements produce consciousness, why are they not also conscious throughout the planet - and the Cosmos? MM: You are simply using different words to repeat the purposeful nature of Cause and Effect MM:I do not see anybody being confused by the different purposes and uses of a horse. Though I do see the science-indoctrinated brain being confused about its purpose. What is science seeking if not the universal unfying principle? MM:What then is the place of perfection? MM:God can never be known. It is a matter of Belief. Belief is a matter of inner conviction. Conviction cannot surface unless there is Faith. A being without faith is in need of compassion. Out of Compasssion, God comes to comfort them. Thus conviction arises and the pilgrim becomes a Believer. MM:Because it is good to have these thoughts. And if they are uncontamionated by doubt, they make one feel perfectly Divine. ;D
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nickelfire
Global Steward
slighted and scorned
Posts: 142
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Post by nickelfire on Feb 8, 2008 20:33:46 GMT -5
Thanks for posting this discussion MM, these are some interesting ideas on consciousness, but I'm familiar with this argument, and have decided for myself what is conscious and what might not be. Whether it was design or evolved was my question, and maybe it can never be answered by anyone but the questioner…
However, I was wondering what you thought about AI, or synthetic consciousness created by man, would it be divine or an accomplishment of science? Surely the former seems ridiculous; therefore god’s involvement in our own consciousness will be refuted with proof.
What do you think? For the sake of conversation anyways. ;D
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murex
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Post by murex on Feb 9, 2008 1:12:56 GMT -5
Ooh. Good question.
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Post by MagnetMan on Feb 15, 2008 14:07:56 GMT -5
Thanks for posting this discussion MM, these are some interesting ideas on consciousness, but I'm familiar with this argument, and have decided for myself what is conscious and what might not be. Whether it was design or evolved was my question, and maybe it can never be answered by anyone but the questioner. Science argues that consciousness is the result of random effect. This is my standard metaphsyical response. All matter is atomic energy. Consciousness could not have appeared out of a vacuum. Therefore a seed of consciousness must be present in every atom Thus all matter is conscious energy. Deciding on the Divine creation of consciousness is another matter. Randomness has minimum effect on Nature. If that were not so, all we would see is chaos. Elephants would reproduce mice for instance. Randomness produces mutations that are only occassionally benficial to the evolutionary process. Mostly it produces distortions which soon die out. So, since nature is ordered and mostly beautiful, it presents the attributes of a Divine Consciousness. We accept that man creates by design So where did we get that conscious trait? It stands to reason that the Devine creates by design as well. If matter is energy. In essence, since matter is energy, matter is illusionary. Only conscious energy is. Since everything in existence is conscious energy and all energy is Divine, all of mankind's creations are essentially expressions of Divine Consciousness |
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